Source : INDIA TODAY NEWS
As President Trump’s tariff policies push nations closer together, Brazil and India are forging an unprecedented partnership that spans defence, currency, and geopolitical strategy. Celso Amorim, Chief Advisor to Brazilian President Lula, tells India Today Global in an exclusive interview that Brazil is exploring procurement of India’s Akash air defence systems while both nations develop interconnected payment platforms to trade in rupees and reals. The former Foreign Minister warns that U.S. military invasion of Venezuela would destabilize the entire South American continent, criticizes Trump’s “absurd” tariffs that contradict economic logic, reveals why BRICS de-dollarization is inevitable, and explains how Brazil maintains its independence while managing relations with Washington, Moscow, Beijing, and New Delhi.
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Geeta Mohan: This is an India Today Global exclusive. We are in conversation with Celso Amorim. He is the current chief advisor to President of Brazil, President Luiz Incio Lula da Silva. He also served twice as Minister of External Relations for Brazil as well as Defence Minister. He’s been ambassador to various countries and teaches international relations. Thank you so much for joining us, sir. Let’s begin with what we are focused on today. There are a lot of issues that we’d like to cover, but we begin with the India-Brazil ties. In recent times, we’ve seen a lot of engagement between India and Brazil, especially defence engagement with important visits. Are there new areas that you’re exploring, new avenues of partnership between India and Brazil?
Celso Amorim: Well, I’m very happy that just two or three days ago, I received here the chief of your Navy. Of course, when I was in India recently, I talked to my colleague, Doval, on the defence cooperation, and we proceeded with these kinds of conversations during the visit of the vice president. So I think it’s normal that two big countries like Brazil and India can have an important cooperation in several areas—technology, biotechnology, information technology, but also in defence. So we are partners or have been partners for a long time. I was very much involved in the past in trade negotiations, and India was really the most important partner of Brazil.
Geeta Mohan: So in terms of agreements, in the recent past, you must have seen India and Russia having signed a RELOS agreement, which basically allows military formations, warships, military aircraft of Russia to engage with India and vice versa. Can India and Brazil enter into a similar kind of agreement in the future?
Celso Amorim: Well, I think the future is full of possibilities. Of course, very often you just have to discuss the details. But you know, President Lula is going precisely for a meeting that has to do with artificial intelligence, AI. So we can discuss all sorts of agreements relating to the future- communication, information—because these are essential parts of defence cooperation as well.
Geeta Mohan: There has been a lot of conversation after our navy chief went to Brazil on Akash and the Akash NG, which is Akash air defence systems. Is Brazil interested in the Akash air defence system? Are you looking to procure it from India? What does it look like when it comes to countering regional threats and growing influence of various countries in Latin America? How can Indian defence systems really help you?
Celso Amorim: Well, when I was the first minister, we already had some cooperation. Apart from pure sales, we had a cooperation, for instance, for a kind of AWACS radar airplane- the base would be a Brazilian airplane but the radar, the communications part would be Indian. This seems simple but it’s not- adapting one thing to the other, you have to work to make them compatible and so on. And I think the ideal cooperation is not just selling and buying- that’s okay, that may be part of it- but also joint development. We have cooperation for space, for aerospace cooperation, but also for naval cooperation that we have been developing.
Geeta Mohan: A very important aspect, sir, and a controversial one recently that has to do with BRICS. Now, we do know that President Trump has been talking about BRICS, he has been questioning BRICS. How important is BRICS in terms of global economic stability? We’ve been talking about currency. Is that something that the BRICS platform is looking at? Is it looking towards de-dollarization? What is the future of a BRICS currency?
Celso Amorim: Let me say first, BRICS is incredibly important for Brazil and India. I mean, it’s the essence of the Global South- the formation of this group, which is trans-ideological, I would say. What we have in common is that we are countries that are aiming at development and are aiming at peace in global terms. And of course, India and Brazil, even before BRICS, we were there- if I can say we were there before the beginning—because we created IBSA with the three countries of the South, not China and Russia at the time. And I think this was one of the reasons for the creation later on of the BRICS. We give it great importance.
De-dollarization, to come to another question, is not an objective in itself, but I think it’s a natural process that will happen. You know, when the United States dollar was the basis in Bretton Woods, the United States economy was about 20-25% of the world economy. Today, it’s about 10 or 12, I don’t know exactly, but much less. So it’s natural that we could try to develop a way of trading in our own currencies. It’s not replacing the dollar by another currency—I’m not excluding that either—but I mean, we could use the rupees and you could use the real. I think that would certainly facilitate a lot and give assurance to our trade, both sides. Our trade is very tiny compared to the size of our countries. So I think Brazil and India have a lot to do in this regard.
Geeta Mohan: I recently interviewed President Putin, and he also said in terms of currencies that no country should act in haste and that they should give BRICS a chance, that they will give BRICS currency sometime. Would you agree? Would you concur with the Russian president and his statement on taking time when it comes to currency for the BRICS?
Celso Amorim: We had very good conversations with the Russians as well. President Putin sent a special envoy to Brazil, by the way, the same person that was in the recent meeting in Johannesburg. We are open to several possibilities, but this has to come naturally—not just like one country saying we want to challenge the dollar. No, that will come naturally. It’s not simple because people get used to some sort of guarantee. But I think the changes in the world economy themselves will promote this kind of de-dollarization, as you said, but not as an objective, but as a natural development.
And I think the best way to do it—I’m not an economist myself, so I’m just speaking from what I read and from a geopolitical point of view—is to increase the trade based on our own currencies. I mean, we accept the rupee as a guarantee and vice versa. So I think this is what we should concentrate on more than creating a new currency right away. Nowadays, there are these new forms of payment. In Brazil, we call it PIX. I don’t know what you call it in India, but I’m sure you have something similar. So I think we can find a way of interconnecting these systems. And I think this will be a big push on trade because it facilitates a lot for the consumer or for the investor to use this system. If we are able to interconnect our systems of rapid payment, this would be a big step and not so difficult. It doesn’t need to be seen as challenging anyone. We are just facilitating trade between ourselves. And maybe if this gets well bilaterally, we can expand it for the whole of BRICS or for some of the BRICS. That’s how we should do it, in my opinion.
Geeta Mohan: Then why do you think President Trump is so rattled? He’s threatened nations who seek to join the BRICS bloc with tariffs, and despite BRICS nations being accommodative of Trump’s concerns, why do you feel he’s trying to build up pressure on the group?
Celso Amorim: Well, you know, we shouldn’t fear ghosts. I don’t think we should be scared by threats. The United States nowadays depends on us as much as we depend on them. So I think—so far, President Lula and President Trump had a good personal relation, but that has not prevented them to impose tariffs on Brazilian goods, as they did with India, by the way, although the pretexts were different.
But what I’m really concerned about, and I think India also should be concerned with, is that we can’t solve this bilaterally only with the United States. I mean, the whole basis of the economic system—the international relations after the war, the multilateral trading system, originally with the GATT, then with the WTO- Brazil and India were very well coordinated on that subject. I think it’s in our interest to defend the multilateral system because if you have just a series of bilateral agreements, although they can alleviate immediate situations, structurally they don’t give us any sort of safe haven.
So I think the fact that the United States is no longer, as Madeleine Albright used to say, the only remaining superpower- they are a superpower, but there are other countries, some militarily, others politically, others even like Brazil with environmental power- the world is much more complex than it was, and we have to take that into account to push things that can be solved multilaterally. But in order to solve multilaterally, maybe we have also to diversify our bilateral relations. And that’s why I think the relations between Brazil and India are so important.
When I was foreign minister, I was at least 10 times in India because I dealt with trade but I also dealt with other subjects. So I put a lot of hope in the next trip of President Lula in February, which will be a state visit at the time of the AI conference. I think these leaders’ meetings have a lot of impact on the minds of the people. If you speak of a common currency, it sounds abstract. But when the presidents meet, they see the political will, they see where we are going. And I think this is very important.
Geeta Mohan: What can we expect during the president’s visit to India? Any major announcements? Any agreements that we should be looking forward to?
Celso Amorim: Well, I think the vice president when he went there discussed a lot of questions. He went with a group of entrepreneurs, so that certainly generated a lot of possible agreements. I think what we mentioned in the area of defence and what we mentioned also in the area of facilitating trade through currency agreements- I know that our central bank people are interested also. So I hope we find a way to do that because that would be a great stimulus.
But of course, there are other areas in which Brazil and India can exchange. You have a very important smallholders agriculture—we also have that. Medicine- you are one of the greatest, if not the biggest, producer of generic medicines. And I think Brazil also fought together with India in the WTO so that we can use generic medicines, medicaments or vaccines. So that’s an enormous area for cooperation that we have not mentioned before. But if I would have to highlight areas: health, defence, and high technology.
Geeta Mohan: Now that we’re talking bilateral, let’s shift from India-Brazil to U.S.-Brazil. On the 3rd of December, there was a phone call between President Trump and President Lula da Silva, and there was a press release that said that the conversation was positive. What key commitments were exchanged either on trade, on Bolsonaro’s prosecution? And does this mark a pragmatic reset or just temporary diplomacy?
Celso Amorim: Well, I won’t go into details, but I would say that the conversations between President Lula and President Trump are basically on bilateral issues. We have a problem with the increase in tariffs, which was totally absurd without any specific reason, actually, because even the United States runs a surplus with Brazil. And if you count services, the surplus is even bigger. So there is no reason apart from maybe a display of power.
So there is a conversation about that. They made some changes in some tariffs because it was in their own interest in terms of not having an inflationary dimension in the U.S.. But this discussion continues because the negotiations will go on at the technical level. And we also discussed other measures that were taken against members of the judiciary in Brazil, which annoys very much. President Trump said that he would look into it.
And of course, more generally, President Lula spoke about the question of South America and Latin America, the preoccupation that we have because South America, Latin America in general, but more specifically South America, which is our subcontinent, has been an area of peace and cooperation. This is a great benefit. We don’t have any difficult rivalries inside. But of course, if some aggression comes from outside, that may be terribly destabilizing. So this is one point also that President Lula made to President Trump.
Geeta Mohan: Did they enter into any conversation on Bolsonaro? Because the President has been very, very vocal about his so-called friend, former President Bolsonaro.
Celso Amorim: Well, you know, I think Mr. Bolsonaro was a very exceptional case in Brazil- an extreme right-wing person and a populist based on irrational messages, promising things that he would not deliver. The role of Brazil internationally fell very much during his years. Internally in Brazil, the reaction- there is no longer the popular support. In the beginning he had popular support, maybe based on false promises, but now there is not that.
Bolsonaro was judged basically for an attempted coup d’tat- either preventing or not recognizing the elections which President Lula won. And this was linked also even to a project or an idea of some political assassinations- killing not only President Lula but also members of the judiciary. So he was condemned. I cannot speak for President Trump, of course, but the fact that he had a warm conversation with President Lula- they met personally at the UN, they met personally also in Malaysia, and have had two or three conversations by phone- I hope this will become normal. You don’t need to agree on everything, provided you respect your partner. And that’s our philosophy. I think President Trump, in relation to President Lula, seems to understand that, but let us see.
Geeta Mohan: After President Putin’s visit to India, a lot of U.S. lawmakers and congresspeople in congressional hearings expressed fear and concern that Trump’s tariff policies are drawing Russia and India closer. I ask you this because I want to know whether if the same policies are drawing Brazil and India closer as well. Brazilian Vice President during his visit to India said, and I quote, “Perhaps the biggest increase in trade flows we’ll see, regardless of the tariff hike, but also because of it, will be with India.” Is Trump the reason why Brazil and India are growing closer?
Celso Amorim: Well, I’m not sure that I understood perfectly your question, but I think we are in different geopolitical situations in a way. The main thing is that we are able to maintain our independence and to deal with several partners. We want to deal with the United States, we want to deal with Russia, we want to deal with China, and of course with South Africa, and of course very much so with India. So we are not in such a pivotal situation as you are.
Although, as I said before, we are concerned with the questions, the threats made to Venezuela. I’m not necessarily saying anything in support of the government of Venezuela, but we believe that’s their business. That’s not the business of someone else to impose one kind of government. So that’s the issue which now is more, let us say, delicate.
I don’t think that there is—of course, there is extreme right-wing in the United States which will continue supporting Mr. Bolsonaro or people like him. But I don’t think they are strong enough to spoil the relations. I’m not so pessimistic on that point. However, I think if there is an attack on another country of South America, a military attack- because this is something that has not happened, I believe, in South America in the 20th century (putting aside the question of Malvinas, which is a very complex question)- there was no direct attack on a South American country. There were actions of the CIA, there were actions of other bodies—that’s in the books, that’s common knowledge—but not an attack as such. So I think if that happens, this would create a very troublesome situation. We won’t- Brazil cannot even have the presumption that we can react in the same way- but I think that will somehow damage the relations. Let us see. But I don’t want to be- I hope still that some peaceful way of solving the questions between the U.S. and Venezuela will be found. Although there already has been some damage, but I hope it will stay there.
Geeta Mohan: In your interview to Guardian, you had described President Trump’s order to close Venezuelan airspace in its entirety as totally illegal. You’ve also been talking about how any invasion, which President Trump now announces or has been announcing, could be a huge violation of a country’s territorial integrity. What, according to you, will Brazil do should America look at a land invasion? And how violative has America been when it comes to Venezuela and international conventions?
Celso Amorim: Well, what we can do now is just to state our positions, and this President Lula has done very clearly. So that’s all we can do now. I don’t want to work on a worst-case scenario. I think let us see, let us try to avoid it. Instead of thinking what we’ll do if the worst-case scenario happens, let us try to avoid it. And that’s what we try to do by conversation.
President Lula is a man of dialogue. I remember in his first and second terms, where I was also Foreign Minister, people would say Lula was the only statesman that was able to talk to Chvez and talk to Bush and be friendly with both. And at that point, there was a very, very difficult situation in Venezuela. And I think we helped to find a solution through mechanisms that are inscribed in the Venezuelan Constitution itself.
But of course, in order to facilitate- or I wouldn’t even use the word mediate- but in order to facilitate a kind of solution, there must be political disposition on both parts. In that case, there was. Maybe because the United States was too busy with Iraq, I don’t know, maybe that was one point. Maybe because the Venezuelans, also President Chvez, saw that there was an internal division that required some movement, whatever. But there was, in principle, two sides with very different situations, but with a disposition for dialogue. Then we could help. But if you don’t see any disposition of solving the questions peacefully, then it’s very difficult. But I’m not sure yet. I’m still hopeful that we can find a way.
Geeta Mohan: But we’re looking at boats being attacked, sir. We’re looking at people missing. We’re looking at oil being taken away from Venezuela. And in such a scenario, would you consider this an act of war? Should U.S. military strike land on Venezuelan territory, its land, or move into Venezuelan space- would that become an act of war? And would that draw Latin American nations into this whole quagmire? Do you see that happening, one? And secondly, what is America going to do now? Is that going to be the next step- war between America and Venezuela?
Celso Amorim: Well, I mean, what I have said, I have said. I remember my interview to the Guardian. Although some situations could be defined as an aggression already, and an aggression in the terms of the UN Charter is an act of war, I don’t want to overstate that so that it seems that a peaceful solution becomes impossible. We are still hopeful that in spite of these, let us say, transgressions—there may be acts which are illegal from the point of view of international law, and even could be discussed whether there are acts of war or not. But anyway, it’s not the same thing as an invasion.
I hope this won’t happen. I’m pretty sure this won’t happen. How to react to these other acts, which are in my opinion aggressive acts—of course, the United States tries to justify that as a war on drugs, but they mix up the war on drugs with terrorism, which is something that we don’t accept. We only consider—I don’t want to enter into other delicate subjects—but anyway, for us, terrorists are the groups that are so defined by the United Nations Security Council. So there is no legal basis, in my opinion, for these acts, which are in a way violent acts.
But this is not the same thing as an invasion. I’m not even speaking from a legal point of view, but from a political point of view, from a sociological point of view—it’s different. But let us see if there is still a way. We don’t approve of what happened. Of course, we criticize what has happened so far in terms of the airspace, in terms of the boats that you mentioned. But we’re still hopeful that some talk, that some common sense would prevail.
Geeta Mohan: Finally, sir, before I let you go, I just wanted to know whether, if in case Maduro and his government fall into a lot of trouble and he’s seeking to move out of Venezuela, will Brazil be an option for him at all?
Celso Amorim: Well, you know, what happened inside Venezuela is a Venezuelan question. It’s for them to decide. I mean, of course, I was there during the elections. I didn’t think the elections were fully as they should have been. But we continue to have relations with them because we consider this an internal problem of Venezuela. We from outside can give some help, but only when there are people in dialogue. And there’s no dialogue now. And of course, these acts of aggression or economic isolation—I mean, all that only aggravates the situation. It doesn’t help at all.
I mean, we had the example in the past when the U.S. government recognized another gentleman, Mr. Guaidó, as president. Did that help? Not at all. In the end, even Mr. Guaidó, nobody speaks about him anymore. He’s almost a non-being. So this is not a way of acting—by pressure, by violation. I think we have to do it in a different way. I think it’s our duty to help if there is room for it, to help in a peaceful solution. And if there is no room for it, then we’ll have to think. But I prefer not to speculate on that.
– Ends
SOURCE :- TIMES OF INDIA
